In the near field a transformer coil is sufficient. Even in the far field a tuned-loop can do. But I m not sure there is actually that much noise energy down in this range in comparison to that which comes from intentional radiation. why couldn t they use a coin cell rechargeable. Impressive statement but any antenna picks up all frequencies it is only the filters that take unwanted frequency energy out and feed it back to ground while isolating the wanted group of frequencies.
So with tuned circuitry this can be picked out and channeled to a cap quite easily. Wavelengths that are too long for the antenna will only pick up with greatly reduced power. Teeny antennas only pick up very high frequencies, on which nothing is transmitted at very high power. Yes the signals are still there but at a much much attenuated power level.
And if you had a tuneable filter iqoption developer filters and could tune to highest RX sig strength and harvest from that then you re onto a winner. With a wideband fractal antenna plus a bank of tuneable filters which are have their frequency pulled by a uC it could work. A uC can be extremely low power and you could have some passive signal strength monitors at common frequencies. Kind of like how antenna diversity is implemented but swap antenna for frequency ie.
dynamically choose the frequency which has the highest rssi and use that for harvesting. I hope to god you are not using enough power to generate strong enough magnetic fields to be useful for this application. i am thinking that you would need several KV and and sever a huge amount of current to make this work I am not saying it is feasible, what i am saying is it is possible to harness enough energy from the air to do things, if you are in a place that has a huge amount of energy in the air.
They don t need much energy and it s all around us, much more than they need. People have been harvesting it for years, the only question I have is what antenna they use and how it s tuned to get the best power transfer at the best frequency and the right time. Just a heads up of the latest comments of this project. I purchased 3 of the StickNFind location stickers. They did not work very well. Many times the connection was lost and many times they could not be found. I am very disappointed in the product.
these StickNFind buttons do not work as advertised. They constantly make false separation alarmseven when the button is within 12 inches of the iPhone it is paired with. have never felt more robbed. this campaign is the reason i would never fund another tech indiegogo campaign. The shape is too suspicious. It is begging for a CR-2032 inside. My guess is they put a CR-2032 inside and lied about the rest. It is possible to use NFC but many phones, including ALL iPhones I believe, has no NFC.
And NFC range is very very poor. If the company can really pull energy through thin air and enough to power BT-LE, they would have solved A LOT of problems. Their technology could easily worth Billions. Common sense says NO. Some of the people listed under our core members have strong pedigree. That is a reason to think the product will have the claimed features. Unless some of those people come out and distance themselves from the campaign.
The best energy harvesting device i ve seen using RF was a card like a credit card with a LED that light up when placed into the field of a NFC reader like you would do with a NFC tag. maybe 200ft in a vacuum, and the tranmitter is placed inside a parabolic dealybob to broadcast focused upon the reciever. these specs are like car stereos, that will say 10,000 watts. A 200ft 60m detection range seems too much to me. and have 25 amp fuses in them.
with math, when you round all your numbers up, you reach 800 watts. then you jump that to a thousand because whatever, no one regulates it. and then you put your safety mechanisms in, and limit it to 300, if the fuse is faulty and doesn t blow at quite 25 amps. regarding Our apologies. At the moment we can t offer free international shipping since we are a US based company and we have to pay both shipping fee and the export taxes to other countries outside of the continental USA.
yes you can offer free international shipping by eating the costs like many ebayers do and just tack the cost onto the item cost. have you ever wondered why the same product can go for 100 with free shipping in 1 listing and the next listing from the same user has 1 penny for the item and 100 for shipping. If it is genuine, I would hazard a guess that they are using cap-xx supercapacitors.
thanks for the link. they look quite interesting indeed. Wow, those look very cool. It s pretty impressive that they re able to cram 1200 mF into a 3mm tall package. Shame they re pretty limited to pretty much just dealing with power spikes and energy harvesters. Even so, very neat. Lithium thin film batteries still have much greater energy capacity. Based on the claimed lifetime, I m fairly certain they arrived at-it having done a back-of-the-envelope calculation in reference to a lithium-thin-film battery datasheet.
Unfortunately, Infinite Power Solutions makers of the Thinergy batteries is not doing so well and supply of the thinergy cells is scarce. ST has an EnFilm line, too, but this is not available yet. I suspect that the iFind creators have yet to realize this supply problem. I was just looking for a Thinergy battery solution but your above email has confirmed my suspicions.
Do you know of another company that supports a similar battery. Do you have any contacts of any of the previous employees. I m assuming this product line may have been picked up by another company, but if it has it s not being marketed as Thinergy. On their KS page, they say they have some patents, so I looked for them. The search is more successful with the co-founder of iFinder s company, Dr.
Paul McArthur. OS PN 6788199 20 28B2 29 RS PN 6788199 20 28B2 29 To summarize, the patent is on a RFID chip, not a Bluetooth chip. RFID doesn t require a battery from what I remember. com patents US7148801 maybe the same. says The transceiver module can also include a battery that is operable to power the second memory unit, the second receiver, the second transmitter, the second timer, and the second control unit.
In one embodiment, the transceiver module is powered by radio frequency energy. My thoughts exactly, Luc. Without a battery, this sounds like RFID rather than bluetooth. My understanding is that RFID tags ARE powered by harvested RF. Yes they are, but have a range limited to the magnetic filed of the reader. For most readers that is a few cm, but for some IE 2 W with highly directive antennas it can be a few meters.
NFC normally operates up to 10cm or so having said that, you can create a device to listen in to a conversation between a tag and a reader a lot further away than that. RFID gen 2 Tags readers there are a host of static and mobile. Think Impinj speedway, Alien Technologies, Zebra Motorola MC319Z, Nordic ID merlin, and many others. They will pick passive tags up from several meters and typically run at 0. 5W 2W depending on local laws.
While not industry standard, IPC RFID tags and readers can have pretty impressive performance as well. With all RFID, a lot depends on the tag and what the tag is attached to in addition to the reader. A iqoption developer designed to operate in free air e. an apparel swing tagwill not be happy attached to a can of fizzy drink for example and will significantly under perform. RFID tags can also be active with a power supply or passive. Passive ones are cheaper, but in more challenging environments, powered tags are an option.
This is all true, but doesn t get to how they could develop a tag that could be read over UHF RFID using phones that don t have UHF RFID readers. I work specifically with UHF RFID reader chips, and I am confident that there are no existing reader chips that are considered acceptable for smartphones, let alone in existing phones. Restrictions include size and power consumption.
Even if we did have UHF RFID reader chips in our phones and I hope that one day we will they wouldn t achieve BTLE read ranges, which the KS campaign promises. Moreover, they explicitly state they are using BTLE. My money is on overly optimistic designers or outright vaporware. I would give this project a 2 chance of meeting its promises, and yes, I d be happy to put money on it.
The following video seem to be a first draft of their kickstarter video. take a look at what the narrator says at 2 55 and compare it with the original kickstarter video. - It utilizes a combination of rfid bluetooth technology vs - It utilizes bluetooth technology. which would indicate a Gen2 BLE style hibrid nonetheless it would only work as long as there were Impinj portals nearby to act as wireless charger for a battery that shouldn t exist now this would make the whole thing a lot more plausible.
Unfortunately they are specific saying it s not RFID either on the comments. My best guess is that they re hoping the tag will normally live in your pocket next to your phone and be able to suck up the radio energy and store it in a battery capacitor to tide it over when it s away from a power source. Pocket energy is maybe up to 2W for GSM 3G only inches away from your tag device, brain, genitals, etc So can be pretty helpful for charging your tag or making you infertile or stupid Do we really believe those claims any more.
I expect if you leave the tag in a field and expect it to work, you ll be disappointed. That s an excellent suggestion Max. Except the 2 Watts is only when you are in a call, and only when you are using low band GSM, and that is typically used only when you are using voice calling, AND it is designed to work at the minimum usable power, so you only will get 2W when you are at the edge of all cell towers in your area. So mostly iqoption developer is a really really poor assumption.
I think it may be a safe assumption that the KS creators are suffering from quite a few poor assumptions. They mention shaking the tag to find your phone. Is it possible they ve got a small kinetic energy generator in the device that s harvesting energy. Everyone seems to be jumping straight to RF energy harvesting. If there is a small enough generator, and a supercap, I could see attaching the tag to stuff that s always on the move, generating energy.
From his patent III. The basic circuit is connected to an onboard power source 116 a battery, such as a coin cell battery, a double layer capacitor, a lithium ion battery, or a thin film battery. Based on unique power conservation programming algorithms, even the most basic device has an operating life in active mode of at least three months six months for average useThis life is extendable using a power harvesting component 117 operating via a light sensitive component e.
a solar cella RF sensitive device e. a coil, antennaa mechanically sensitive device e. a piezo-electric PZT, a bimorph, a ceramic, a coil with a magnet or temperature sensitive device e. Using ambient vibrations picked up by the piezo buzzer as a power source. I wonder if anything has done that before. Prior art would involve going wayyyyy back to the early telephones that ran on voice power and used the speaker for a microphone.
I don t think anyone is jumping to the RF harvesting it s right on the company s blog they posted a link in their KS update. how do you shake it if it is lost. The idea is that you shake it if you _have_ a tag, but you ve lost your phone I m deeply suspicious of this project s claims of running on harvested energy. It ll be interesting to go back well after the funding date and see what s happening in the comments.
The idle power consumption isn t really relevant it wouldn t be running idle, it would simply be off most of the time. No need to listen all the time for a ping, if it listens once every couple of seconds that s fine. It s more a question of whether you can build a rectenna that small which can deal with the leakage currents in the threshold detection circuitry, power switch circuitry, rectifiers and whatever capacitor you use for storage ultracaps seem right out.
It needs to be in idle since it has to wake up when contact is attempted, when you want to try to find the tag. Most uCs have a sleep and watchdog wakeup timer. And when those are enabled you have an idle power consumption. Hench the idle consumption remarks. still, a periodic wakeup timer can be implemented with an average current draw of only about 100nA, much less than the 10uA quoted above.
Which draws a small amount of power, but firing up the RF receiver will draw a few mA for a few milliseconds. Thus the 10uA average. How do you synchronize the wake listen for pings every few minutes. It would go into a sleep mode, but it does not turn off the radio completely. You wake up every 5 seconds, only long enough to recognize a signal maybe a couple milliseconds. Your transmitter broadcasts for 6 seconds when pinging, no need for any synchronization.
The very successful Sticknfind campaign It may have been successful, but from the reviews I ve seen they are rather cheap and suck. Also Sticknfind has failed to deliver their other products they claimed where nearly complete over a year ago. I backed this project, can confirm they have some bugs. It s probably a rechargeable battery. Since the theory is that t will get recharged over and over the user will never have to replace it.
As such its magic to the user and they can say, look over here, user, there s no battery that you need to worry about and its the coolest thing ever. OBVIOUSLY, they found Tesla s old energy transmission towers, and are planning to stand them up and get them working. Considering that I build a device not too much different than iFind at least from a basic perspectiveand I know the state of the art for wireless energy harvesting as well as anyone does, I would be VERY hesitant to pre-order one of these.
Let s look at other BLE trackers, Stick n Find and Tile, and then compare the state-of-the art to the pie-in-the-sky claims of the iFind. Stick n Find Stick n Find has had a disastrous reception from its users. In my testing, it has about one or two months of charge in the 2016 cell, and it is basically impossible to replace it. The range is about 10-15m. Tile Tile needed to enlarge their device substantially in order to accommodate a CR2032, needed to have one year battery life, and in order to enlarge the antenna to get a mere 30m range.
Tile is now looking like 38 x 38 x 6mm or so. Looking more deeply into this iFind, the solution size of a rechargeable battery, the charge controller IC, and the energy harvesting element is too thick for their quoted dimensions. In 2012 when I was beginning the designing my product, I had even prototyped lithium-thin-film batteries, but these are still impractical for a bunch of reasons I won t go into. If you pre-order this product, it will either never ship, or it will ship in a form completely different than the one that is promised.
In the FAQ they have another suspicious claim Is there any Visual alerts for people with hearing issues. Yes, the iFind App does have a visual locating display showing the estimated direction and distance. I m not aware of any phone that has direction finding RF capability. And how about some image analysis. On the top image, the apple keys 15 x 15 mm are very close to 15 pixels tall and wide.
The tag is only 26 22 pixels, meaning it is smaller than the 32x27mm stated. Comparing the cat s paws to the tag would mean the cat s paws would be almost 2. 5 long and it s head close to 7 across. That s one big cat. Considering that Kickstarter prohibits renderings of final products, I m throwing a flag there. Using the phone compass and RF strength while turning about with the phone will be able to give you a good approximation ignoring multipathing etc of RF direction, so there you go.
Also the same thing with distance with regards to RF strenth received. All approximations but would be good enough to provide a showy app if the tag works. Antennas in phones are not directional. and multipath does not guarantee that getting closer to the phone means stronger signal. Sigh, no they are not, however, with a weak signal like low power bluetooth, and you in a room swinging a phone about, you will be an effective shield at the 2. 4 ghz it operates at, turning yourself and the phone into a hokey approximation of a directional antenna.
As I mentioned, mainly gimmick, but it does have a little basis to work with. Some of you mention that you don t like the can this kickstarter claim be for real postings, but I, for one, find the discussion on these kind of topics very interesting. Clearly there are some very intelligent and resourceful posters on HaD and I always end up learning something new from the comments posted. I discovered many interesting things thanks to our readers. The following is from the iFind FAQ.
Is it possible that the battery of iFind tag dies. To begin with, iFind tag doesn t have a battery. Instead, it uses our patent pending EM Harvesting technology and stores the energy in a uniquely designed power bank. In other words, iFind tag powers itself. - In the worst case scenario, let s say you lost your tag in the middle of a remote desert, where there s no EM wave at all, the tag will still hold power for days. Power bank sounds like flim-flam for battery.
remote desert where there s no EM wave at all Um, unless it was underground as well, there s still light, which is EM. Not to mention the strange grammar of that sentence. Also the fact that there is plenty of EM in every desert on the planet, even in Antarctica. The trouble with RF harvesting is that there just isn t that much energy available. Assuming that the noise floor in the 2. 45 GHz band is a consistent -90dBM Hz, that is barely enough to power a BLE device assuming that the conversion to DC is near-perfect.
The other problem is that the 2. 45 GHz band, as noisy as it is, is only a consistent -90dBm Hz in truly noisy environments. Even if the conversion was 100 efficient, I don t see how the device could harvest enough power to function. According to their FAQ, the power bank will last for days even without EM. They also indicate their app will display the charge level of any tag s power bank.
I m almost 100 sure the power bank they are considering here is a Lithium Thin-Film battery. Anyway, I m less skeptical that it s possible than I am skeptical it can be done in the form factor they specify for the price they offer. 45 GHz band alone, it is conceivable to build a device in this form factor, but not for 14 and not reliable.
Using multiple RF bands for input energy requires multiple antennas and multiple tuning circuits, though, in addition to a somewhat exotic semiconductor chemistry to pass multiple bands in far away spectrums. So high cost. com good-true-tour-ifind-battery-free-feature This page attempts to explain the device s EM harvesting.
However, the explanation lacks any detail whatsoever. Even with a really efficient horn, in a development environment running hundreds of devices on BT and with several wifi AP, i don t think i have ever seen 90 dBm Hz using an efficient antenna. Typically i see 90 dBm 10KHz or less. And yes i have done the math one this one several times.
Even adding moving to cell band, the bandwidth you would get a tiny amount of power. If it communicates at 2. 4GHz, why would you limit the power-reception to that frequency. Why not make a very wide antenna rectenna. From lets say 17. 1800MHz, up till 100GHz. Using lower frequencies 88-108MHz transmitters for example is not really useful for a battery free small tagsince your antenna construction would be larger.
The trade-of is size weight versus power. NFC tags can communicate at several meters. not centimeters. They actually do mass check-in out for people at train stations in some countries, using big antennas above for example escalators. And take a look at CherrySwitches, they make produce energy harvesting switches, and NXP the IC s. Cherry even has 802. 4 supportive switches. Through Cherry itn t using RF.
It s a option. and commercially available. I ll think those BLE energy harvesting tags could exist. To make a quick addition. Check out NXP EnOcean. I don t see any problems with those BLE tags. Those examples do not harvest energy from RF signals. They convert the energy from the mechanical force when you push the switch lever. Looks like at least 1500 backers, at time of writing, are all going to get ripped off. To what degree of ripped off is yet to be seen.
It s all too good to be true and some people obviously don t realise where the limits of current technology are to be able to compare this to. Their ignorance will be their undoing, quite right too, suckers. All very plausible Antenna Wideband fractal printed on their PCB substrate. Compact and can be very wideband. Low input V, low Iq, boost converter Linear Tech do a few for energy harvesting apps.
htm BLE silicon Plenty around. I think it becomes unbelievable when they make out that it s got an endless source of power. It does kind of there are EM waves everywhere but that endless source of power is very very low. Their energy storage component will deplete pretty quick should that loud beeper keep beeping for a few mins and you keep polling the BLE tag. In summary, it s all possible but they need to ensure they include some caveats and manage expectations.
Once the energy storage component is fully depleted I wonder how long it takes to charge it up again say, to a point where it can communicate and power its beeper. VHF and UHF tv transmissions are consistent power sources, and I ve seen videos a device powered off TV signals. But all it could do was flash an LED, and it had a dipole antenna that was about 20cm long. So I think given the size and power requirements, I d say it s bogus. To be fair, it s probably at least an order of magnitude more current to flash an LED vs the 10uA required for BLE idle.
I know it is not a hack, but I still enjoy seeing the reasons how WiFi GSM DVB-T ATSC can never generate enough power to power up a BLE device. Yeah, it s a good brain workout, when those who know start explaining exactly why it won t work. Gives some of us a bit of extra knowledge in a new area, which is always worth having.
Interesting, it reminds me of the Lunacase, also on kick starter. It s a case with a few LED notifications built in but no power source, rather claiming to rely on the elctromagnetic radiation from your phone. i remember five-ten years ago having a pen that had a LED at the back that would light up whenever there was an incoming call on my cellphone or any phone within 5 meters running completely passive only on GSM harvested energy yes, i did rip it apart eventually to verify, it was an awesome piece of chinese hackery.
I see no reason why this shouldn t work with BTLE. Oh yeah, those horrible little dongles were everywhere, every street-corner vendor of low-quality cellphone accessories at least. I thought they had a battery inside. Most did, but I also recall a device like this in the form of a sticker that one would place on the phone s case near the antenna that seemed far to small to contain a battery. I could be wrong.
I also seem to recall said device claiming to reduce harm to the user caused by the phone s radiation. They aren t passive. They have a tiny battery in. I pulled a Disney Mickey Mouse one apart for a PC mobile-phone activated on switch. You basically use a antenna and a diode detector to trickle charge a battery via remote RF illumination.
It should be doable. BTW, this is kind like how those NSA retro-reflector bugs work. There is no voltage in that, you will never trickle charge anything. you need your voltage to be stepped up above your battery voltage. Stepping up from a few tens of mV is easily done and at good efficiency. Many manufacturers, such as Linear Tech, make these DC-DC boost converters.
I really don t see an issue with their claims TBH. What is suspect is that they aren t giving any caveats with them. Nobody ever consider using a Joule Thief for power management. They are ridiculously inefficient, so it is unlikely that they could be used in something like this. You stole my thunder. I was gonna recommend a joule thief.
Of course it could be an orgone-energy RF joule thief a iqoption developer ether-thief, if you will. Even ignoring the battery or lack of the are also couple of other things a-miss here. Firstly the size. They mention it is 2. 4mm thick, now assuming it s injection moulded then there will be a minimum wall thickness of about 0. 7mm reducing the internal space to a mere 1mm. I would be amazed if they could all the required circuitry and also a buzzer at least a buzzer that s louder than a flea s fart in that space.
Especially considering the space which needs to be left around the BLE antenna for it to work properly. Secondly throughout the video the bluetooth icon never comes to life when they are demoing the app. May just be for video purposes but still odd. Thirdly the 200ft 60m range claim. Now in an open area it is definitely possible to achieve this distance with a standard spec BLE antenna with the TX power set around 5dbm, however it would be a very unstable connection, and would drop out if you looked it the wrong way.
In the real world usage, like for example when you put your phone in your pocket, you would not really see more than 100ft 30m. Could be molded around the PCB instead heat problems with that, of course, although maybe some thermosets would be tolerable. Could be vacuum formed. Rigid thin plastic makes a fairly good mechanical gain medium to make the beeper louder. Could be pressed metal but is electrically conductive and would interfere with EM absorption unless they re being reeeeeally clever.
Funny diplane antenna with plastic spacer. And it s biodegradable, too. Not saying that the Kickstarter has access to Israeli army research because that would be highly unlikelyjust pointing out that Quantum Tophats might be around sooner rather than later. For better lack of a description it seems like they have overclocked or hacked what we would traditionally identify as RFID to be compatible with the bluetooth 4. Maybe some kind of motion-energy capture too. They mention shaking the device to sync it so perhaps thatch also used in piezo energy.
Ah, you beat me to it. I was going to suggest the motion generator a number of really small shake-activated generator projects out there. The little generator just needs to get bounced around regularly to pick up a little charge. I don t see where the awake vs asleep times are specified for this. Could it be that they charge a small storage device they say no battery so maybe supercap. During active, bouncy times the tag gets juice regularly, but as the cap discharges the cycle gets longer.
Still wouldn t be bad for something like tagging keys that get bounced around a lot. I would think that you could potentially harvest more energy from motion than you could from background EM. com good-true-tour-ifind-battery-free-feature clearly states that it draws it s power from multiple EM spectra. I am using EM harvesting in a product of my own. I use a special transducer that is 20 efficient, and it can harvest energy across a 500 Terahertz.
patch of spectrum. The active surface area is 20x6mm, and it optimal conditions I ve observed it to deliver a battery charge current of 4. Yep, it s a solar panel. If you want a cheap way to harvest a lot of energy, it s really the best way to go. Even indoor lighting provides way more energy than virtually every other harvesting method there is. Yep, I m betting they re concealing a small thin-film solar cell.
Though it would be FAR cooler if the little tags had a beta-decay battery. It can t be only a solar cell, since the promotion video shows a tag being tucked into a compartment in a wallet. But maybe their device will rely on several different harvesting methods wireless signals, solar, motion. This is rf harvesting tech coming out of U Illinois and is probably what they are using.
Problem is, per the paper, this seems to generate about 460 mV, rather than the 3 volts used by the BLE. If the HAD math of 30uW listed above is the norm for idle draw, then the amount of current they would have to be able to harvest would seem even more unattainable. Iqoption developer think we re talking 65 uA. Remember the crystal am radio. I know it had a huge coil ant I think it could be done. At under 20 not yet. Miniature size cost money.
I was thinking along the same lines. A crystal radio is a classic example of powering a device using only the signal itself. However, as you mention, they typically use a large antenna and only generate enough power to drive a tiny, very sensitive speaker. Maybe they use a printed battery, the capacity is very low.
Coments:04.03.2020 : 09:11 Samugore:
This score is better than 99. 32 of iqoption developer persons iqoption developer this test. Spatial Skill.